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Questions on MMR vaccination
Posted by Dani R (168 days ago)
My baby wll be turning one soon and will be due for his shots. Is there still controversy surrounding the MMR shot/link with autism? Or are most of these vax mercury-free now? Pros and Cons for the all-in-one versus the separate shots would be welcome. Thanks.
(I am based in Guangzhou)
Posted by cara (168 days ago)
so far as i know, the "link" has been completely debunked.
the vaccines are merc-free.
last i checked, was a while ago, separate shots were not available (if i remember correctly, two of them were, but not the third)
gov't clinics only offer the MMR combined
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Matilda (165 days ago)
To summarize our recommendations:
- All vaccinations are mercury free
- MMR: The controversy has convincingly been proven to be untrue, and the vaccination should be given as a combined ‘MMR’ vaccination after the first birthday. Most parents will opt for this to be done at 15 months
- Combined vaccinations are more effective and give less side-effects.
Matilda Medical Centre - 25378500
Matilda International Hospital
Hong kong
http://www.matilda.org
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (157 days ago)
Dani R>
I'd like to point out that mercury is not the only toxic/dangerous material that is STILL placed in some vaccines. You can find things like formaldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, anti freeze, polysorbate 20, live viruses / bacteria, etc, in some vaccines.
http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/informed-vaccine.html
"...... Many will say that thimerosol is not in the vaccines any more. Well last summer Congress "strongly recommended" that the Pharmaceutical Company take the thimerosol out of vaccines....it was not mandated; simply recommended. The drug companies were not told to take the existing lots off the market. The recommendations only applies to new product line manufacture. An unknown amount of vaccine was/is still on the shelves.
Now the twist:
Yes, the new vaccines are supposed to be thimerosal-free, but I'm not sure that they are. In addition, it is unknown when you get a vaccination if you are getting a "new lot" or an "old lot." It is unknown exactly when the new thimerosal-free vaccines went into effect and were available in the market. In addition, if you were vaccinated with an old lot, or vaccinated previous to last summer, you got a dose of the mercury."
Above excerpted from ....
http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/7/vaccine_ingredients.htm
General info on vaccines ....
http://www.healingourchildren.net/vaccine_side_effects.htm
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by cara (156 days ago)
ahhhh.... exyogi.... it's been a while.....back again, huh?
beware all... exyogi NEVER recommends ANY vaccine...he's all about eating the right veggies and that will keep you healthy...no need for modern medicine according to him!
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by good golly (156 days ago)
However, statements like
"The controversy has convincingly been proven to be untrue"
is just as much a statement to "beware" of.
Vaccines will ALWAYS bring up heated debate (good, that helps people become aware).
"beware" of all the information available, it is your choice as a consumer.
There are still numerous families and practitioners who do not believe that "the controversy has proven to be untrue"
Everyone can do internet searches and quote slabs of information and look hard enough you can always find an answer to justify your belief.
There are Human Rights Lawyers working on these cases all over the world..........watch what happens!
Interesting too, that in some countries, if you have a child with autism or indeed a history in your family, your are exempt from the MMR on the grounds of your family history - go figure!
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by the goddess kali (156 days ago)
i tend to be very very wary of vaccines as well. i organised a conference on the potential risks of vaccinations, and the material i came across was quite shocking.
so i'd agree with ex yogi's attitude.
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (155 days ago)
"i tend to be very very wary of vaccines as well. i organised a conference on the potential risks of vaccinations, and the material i came across was quite shocking."
Vaccines better than the alternatives. Polio and smallpox aren't nice diseases.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (154 days ago)
Starlionblue2>
If you can, please explain why you think not getting vaccinated will lead to getting polio or smallpox (or whatever).
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (154 days ago)
"If you can, please explain why you think not getting vaccinated will lead to getting polio or smallpox (or whatever)."
I didn't say that not getting a vaccine WILL lead to contraction of the corresponding disease.
Not being inoculated leads to a RISK of contracting the disease from which the vaccine would protect you.
Would you rather have your kids get a shot or risk them getting polio, smallpox, hepatitis...? Sure, there are sometimes complications from the inoculations, but these are rather rare and less serious than the corresponding disease.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by cd (154 days ago)
Tend to agree with the Goddess Kali and exyogi to some extent. As a parent of a severely disabled child I have met many families with disbaled children over the years, several of which are convinced their childs disability stems from a vaccine, and not always the MMR. My children have had their vaccines, but I have opted for single doses where available, and even the 'normal' childhood vaccines I have reduced the number given at once and given them over a longer period of time so they are not 'overloaded' too much. To the OP read as much information as you can, make the choice that you feel is best for your family, but remember that their is a small risk whichever way you go.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (154 days ago)
"remember that their is a small risk whichever way you go."
Of course. Life is risky.
In my opinion, vaccines are the way to go. But every parent should decide for him or herself. Having said that, is it fair to the child to withhold inoculation if the child then contracts a serious disease as a result? That's a dangerous game.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (154 days ago)
Starlionblue2>
No, you didn't say it but your statement ... "Vaccines [are] better than the alternatives. Polio and smallpox aren't nice diseases." .... implies if you don't get the shot, you'll get the disease. There's no mention of risk in that statement.
A few things for you to consider about the diseases you mentioned .....
Polio ..... this is caused by a dietary imbalance, not viral ......
http://www.mercola.com/article/sugar/polio_sugar.htm therefore, no need for a shot, just correct the diet.
Hepatitis ..... a strong immune system is best way to prevent and treat this disease
http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/23/hepatitis_a.htm
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/hepatitis_c_infects_millions.htm
Smallpox ..... no need for a shot, there are effective alternatives for prevention and treatment.
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jul/10/smallpox_outbreak.htm
"Would you rather have your kids get a shot or risk them getting polio, smallpox, hepatitis...? "
I, and my kids, have no fear of getting ANY disease because we indulge in things that only support and strengthen the greatest of disease fighters - the immune system. Vaccines, ALL vaccines, undermine and weaken the immune system
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/immune_suppression.htm
"Sure, there are sometimes complications from the inoculations, but these are rather rare and less serious than the corresponding disease."
A ridiculous statement when you consider that vaccinations are unnecessary, ineffective, and dangerous.
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (154 days ago)
You seem to only have one source, Dr. Mercola. He hardly seems reputable. My impression is that he's just one more new age quack who has a beef against the pharmaceutical industry.
"Hepatitis ..... a strong immune system is best way to prevent and treat this disease "
What do you think the vaccine does?
"Polio ..... this is caused by a dietary imbalance, not viral ......"
Ehm. no. It's caused by a virus.
"Vaccines, ALL vaccines, undermine and weaken the immune system"
That's laughable. Vaccines boost the immune system. It's their method of preventing disease.
"A ridiculous statement when you consider that vaccinations are unnecessary, ineffective, and dangerous."
Ineffective? Dangerous? Do you see all these millions of inoculated people dropping dead like flies? I don't. Two hundred years ago, an epidemic could kill tens of thousands in a few weeks. Today, such things don't happen any more. Hmmm, I wonder what changed?
Inoculation is one of the miracles of modern civilization. It enables the vast majority of children in industrialized nations to grow up and live healthy lives. Saying it's dangerous in blanket sense is an outright lie.
"No, you didn't say it but your statement ... "Vaccines [are] better than the alternatives. Polio and smallpox aren't nice diseases." .... implies if you don't get the shot, you'll get the disease. There's no mention of risk in that statement."
If you want to interpret it that way, be my guest. I think readers will understand what I meant.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (154 days ago)
And where is your source(s) supporting your rebuttals?
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (154 days ago)
"And where is your source(s) supporting your rebuttals?"
Hmmm. Well I could have gotten those answers from a medical doctor. Are you going to tell me medical doctors study for years based on false information about how the body works?
The facts I stated aren't disputed except by people "outside the mainstream". Now, I'm all for questioning the accepted wisdom, but there is overwhelming scientific evidence that vaccinations have beneficial effects. Unless you can find multiple studies using the scientific method, peer reviewed by experts in the field, that show vaccines are bogus, I think people in the main will keep getting vaccines.
Just because a guy is a doctor (and not even of medicine!) and has a website that says vaccines are bogus doesn't mean they are. It takes a bit more than that.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by cara (154 days ago)
Starlionblue... exyogi comes round these parts every few months and spouts the same stuff. he is dead set against any form of vaccination and believes that eating the right veggies cures all.
there's no point in arguing with him as all he does is quote from many websites spouting the same stuff.
i, personally, think that life has improved drastically in the past few hundred years. and i believe that a large part of this stems from the improvement in healthcare, INCLUDING the development of vaccinations.
exyogi, however, would have us revert to the dark ages, without modern medicine, it seems. (by no means do i believe that drs are infallible. i dare say that i would believe a dr over exyogi though when it comes to my family's medical care.)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Starlionblue2 (154 days ago)
"Starlionblue... exyogi comes round these parts every few months and spouts the same stuff. he is dead set against any form of vaccination and believes that eating the right veggies cures all."
I am getting that distinct impression yes. :)
"exyogi, however, would have us revert to the dark ages, without modern medicine, it seems. (by no means do i believe that drs are infallible. i dare say that i would believe a dr over exyogi though when it comes to my family's medical care.)"
Ah yes. The Dark Ages. Infant mortality in double digit percentages, an average lifespan well under forty, pestilence, famine and an early grave. Sounds fantastic!
exyogi is of course free to live life as he wants. I challenge exyogi to post about the first time someone in his family gets appendicitis and he tries to solve it by changing his diet.
In return, I shall post if my daughters have any ill effects from their vaccinations in the next few years.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (154 days ago)
Starlionblue2>
Is that a "no" you (and cara) won't be posting references supporting your views?
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by cara (154 days ago)
i don't need to post a reference. it is MY view. i'm not trying to convince anyone of it one way or another.
there is NO WAY that i will change your opinion. and there is definitely NO WAY that you will change mine.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by cara (153 days ago)
ok... i actually read the first link from your last post...
seems to me that there is a whole lot of scare-mongering and very little substance. i wouldn't have used this as a reference if i was writing a 7th grade health report! (anyone can make statistics sound bad).
no where did it say how many lives were saved, did it? it didn't even bother to give the total number of patients admitted into hospital. it just played up the number of poor people that died. (now, dont' get me wrong, anyone dying from anything other than sheer old age is a tragedy.)
if this is what you trust, exyogi, you are entitled. i however, am now completely convinced that it is NOT the drs that are "quacks" (as your post's reference asserts). thank you! you have now utterly discredited your views, in my opinion.
PS> just so you know.... i have no intention of having my children vaccinated against chicken pox. i would rather they catch that and develop immunity the old fashioned way. neither do i have any intention of having anyone in my family get the flu shot. (they try to figure out what the strain of flu will be next year and prepare a vaccine for that strain. if it isn't the strain that develops, then the vaccine is useless. in my opinion, it isn't worth putting my kids through getting these two shots in particular. HOWEVER, they WILL receive the others on the gov't schedule. AGAIN, this is MY choice.)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (153 days ago)
Cara>
The point of the article "Gangsters In Medicine" is not about lives saved or lost. The point of the article can be summed up in the following quote ....
".... A large part of this medical disaster that the United States currently experiences is due to the way our medical community is organized. Basically it is not organized to heal and to cure disease; the medical community, particularly at its upper levels, is a commercial venture organized to make money for its practitioners....."
My intention for submitting the two links was to dispel Starlionblue2's naiveté regarding "conventional" medical study being about how the body works. Regardless of how the body woks, the BUSINESS of conventional medicine is about how to push (legal) drugs for each and every ailment. How the body works, how to heal (or protect) the body is an irrelevant matter.
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by axptguy38 (153 days ago)
exyogi, if the methods you advocate have been clearly proven to work so much better, why aren't people flocking to them? You would have us believe that there is a great conspiracy to keep the rest of us in the dark? It just seems a bit much to fathom.
"No one in my family will be getting appendicitis. cancer, diabetes, autism, gall stones, IBS, or any other "modern ailment." "
I think you may be unpleasantly surprised in the future.
"I can state this with such assurance because I know that diseases don't just randomly happen - they have causes."
Of course they have causes. Not all are know though. And just because you know the cause doesn't mean the cure is apparent.
"Is that a "no" you (and cara) won't be posting references supporting your views?"
Quite frankly I think the burden of proof is still on you. Starlionblue2 and Cara could simply pick up any number of respected medical journals to find scientific evidence. You are still on the level of quacks trying to make a buck.
"My intention for submitting the two links was to dispel Starlionblue2's naiveté regarding "conventional" medical study being about how the body works. Regardless of how the body woks, the BUSINESS of conventional medicine is about how to push (legal) drugs for each and every ailment. How the body works, how to heal (or protect) the body is an irrelevant matter."
Funny that. All of your sources seem to be pushing a book or something else for payment. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by exyogi (152 days ago)
axptguy38>
"exyogi, if the methods you advocate have been clearly proven to work so much better, why aren't people flocking to them? You would have us believe that there is a great conspiracy to keep the rest of us in the dark? It just seems a bit much to fathom."
Not a conspiracy .... it's just "conditioning and programming" what you believe. It started with a man named Edward L. Bernays - the Father of Spin. Here's how it's done .....
http://thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.php?page=articles/doors_of_perception.php
"I think you may be unpleasantly surprised in the future."
And the reason you think this is because .......?
"Funny that. All of your sources seem to be pushing a book or something else for payment. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?"
No. One of the criteria I use in evaluating any idea is to ask this question .... is there any TRUTH to what is being presented. Things like "pushing a book or something else for payment." are completely irrelevent.
Now ...... for a bit of humorous satire (pointed at the "modern medicine" that cara holds so highly in her opinion) have a look at "Why Doctors Are Idiots: 150 Years of Disatrous Advice On Children's Health (satire)" .....
http://www.newstarget.com/022389.html
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by exyogi (152 days ago)
cara>
"PS> just so you know.... i have no intention of having my children vaccinated against chicken pox. i would rather they catch that and develop immunity the old fashioned way. neither do i have any intention of having anyone in my family get the flu shot. (they try to figure out what the strain of flu will be next year and prepare a vaccine for that strain. if it isn't the strain that develops, then the vaccine is useless. in my opinion, it isn't worth putting my kids through getting these two shots in particular. "
Bravo!!!! Good for you cara!!!!
So what will you do when/if the authorities determine you and/or your children MUST have those particular shots? Will you refuse and be fined or go to jail? How about if they won't let your kids into school without those particular shots? Or, what if you'll loose your job, or, can't get the job you want without those particular shots?
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by cara (152 days ago)
how could i be a good mother if i'm sitting in a jail cell? (not that i think it would come to this...)
if they become "necessary" then i guess i would have them inocculated.
i NEVER said that i thought drs are infallible. I'm sure there have been MANY mistakes made by drs practicing "modern medicine". throughout 2 VERY complicated pregnancies, i ALWAYS questioned suggestions and decisions made by drs. i think that i was the only one in the hospital that actually read my own chart. HOWEVER, i still believe far more of what comes out of a dr's mouth that most of the stuff i read on the websites you quote.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by the goddess kali (146 days ago)
hot topic. pity i don't have more time.
anyways, i organised a scientific forum with experts on the topic, but can't post links as they are all in italian. iw ould just say that vaccines are not so innocous as pharmaceutical companies would have one believe. case in point, read what CD says.
yes sometimes life is full of choices where you need to choose betwen the devil and the deep blue sea.
my mum didn't vaccinate any of us (4 kids) against polio, as one of her neighbours kids got the disease after the vaccination.....(this was more than 40 yrs ago). none of us got polio.
as for doctors being infallible or not i think that would be another long heated thread.....
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by axptguy38 (141 days ago)
"my mum didn't vaccinate any of us (4 kids) against polio, as one of her neighbours kids got the disease after the vaccination.....(this was more than 40 yrs ago). none of us got polio."
You logic is backwards. You never got it because you probably were never exposed to the disease. Why? There are few polio cases around. Why? Because near universal inoculation stops the disease from spreading! I would also submit that a lot has changed in 40 years when it comes to vaccines.
"anyways, i organised a scientific forum with experts on the topic, but can't post links as they are all in italian. "
I can read that. Post away.
"as for doctors being infallible or not i think that would be another long heated thread....."
Of course they're not but unless I find a better option, I'll take the doctors.
"Now ...... for a bit of humorous satire (pointed at the "modern medicine" that cara holds so highly in her opinion) have a look at "Why Doctors Are Idiots: 150 Years of Disatrous Advice On Children's Health (satire)" .....
http://www.newstarget.com/022389.html"
Most of the examples are indeed true. But where is the article listing all the triumphs of medicine? I daresay it would be much longer.
- The first example, about hand washing. Now handwashing is routine. Did doctors perhaps not accept the evidence? Are they still resisting? No, because scientific evidence pointed them at the right answer.
- Inoculation and sanitation. No more cholera or typhus epidemics in modern nations. No more flu that decimates populations. No more bubonic plague.
- Drastically lower infant and mother mortality due to everything from c-sections to induction to ultrasounds.
- Organ transplantation.
- Cholesterol control drugs.
- Ulcer treatments.
- Trauma procedures in emergency rooms have saved countless lives.
- Blood and plasma transfusions.
- Dyalysis machines.
- Laser treatments for cancer.
- Chemotherapy.
- ...
I could go on. But my point is that while modern medicine has blundered and will continue to do so, it has also made an unparalleled contribution to modern longevity and quality of life.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Dani R (141 days ago)
I have been away for awhile and my oh my! I wasn't expecting this many replies and didn't want to stir up a big debate (although a little drama here and there is inevitable w/such a topic). I do appreciate hearing all sides to this. I'm trying to make an informative decision and will try to choose what is best for my child. Thanks everyone and Happy New Year.
(I am based in Guangzhou)
Posted by Dani R (141 days ago)
I have been away for awhile and my oh my! I wasn't expecting this many replies and didn't want to stir up a big debate (although a little drama here and there is inevitable w/such a topic). I do appreciate hearing all sides to this. I'm trying to make an informative decision and will try to choose what is best for my child. Thanks everyone and Happy New Year.
(I am based in Guangzhou)
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