Trust, honesty and empathy

Posted by weelee (385 days ago)

Hi everyone, i have decided to put this thread up because I would like to know the feeling and thoughts of others. I am unsure if Ed will delete this, if he does so be it. All I can say is, so much for freedom of speech.

The topic that I would like to bring up is the 9/11 conspiracy theory. I am sure you are aware of it, but has many of you seen the online documentaries? I am an engineer and I can remember when it happened and I thought the buildings fell very fast and didn't fall as I expected. Now that I have checked out a lot of the online documentaries my suspicions were correct. I cannot compute the fact that it may of been an internal job done by the U.S government. The thought of all those innocent lives being sacrificed just for an excuse to make money and obtain oil is just beyond my comprehension . I could bore you with all the details but if you are curious just google it, a good one is called "loose change". What I am more interested in is how they fell. There is enough evidence out there to prove that it was a controlled demolition. So my question is; WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE AND THINK. Also, what if it is true and the US government was involved; what do you think will happen.

Oh please don't start name calling or anything this is an open discussion and I am just curious what others think.

To finish it off, a snip it of information. Throughout the entire history of civil engineering only three steel structured building have ever fallen due to fire. They all happened on 9/11. During the 2nd world war the empire states building was hit by a large bomber plane and was on fire for something like 24 hours; that didn't collapse. So how come the WTC towers fell???

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Tidings 2 (385 days ago)

I have seen and heard several programs
about this and yes, I was pretty freaked out.
I strongly doubt it was the US gov't but absolutely could have been part of the whole plan by the terrorists.
It would be virtually impossible to keep that plan a secret. Not possible by normal people. Terrorists, maybe.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (385 days ago)

Well I suppose just about anyone can be a "terrorist" these days...

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by annebin (385 days ago)

might be better to move this to Speakers..

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by weelee (385 days ago)

Hi tidings 2, thanks for your thoughts. I hear what you are saying, but i find it hard to believe that some terrorist somehow got clearance to get in those building to rig it out with explosives. A demolition preparation can take weeks to set-up and tons of explosives. I am by no means disrespecting your opinion, i went down that line of thought also until i learned how much effort would be required to set it up. If you are curious type in false flag operations on google. Some of the info is very scary. A false flag op being when somebody sets up an incident and leaves enough evidence to be able to point the finger at another country or organization. there is official documents out there now released by the US govt describing what they have done in the past.

I have been looking at a lot of stuff over the months and it is frightening what goes on and is not explained.


Lets hope that the people who lost loved ones in 9/11 get the truth and honesty they deserve.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by HKBlue (385 days ago)

Conspiracy theories.
You have to ask yourself WHY?
Why would the terrorist go to all that trouble and expense of planning the hijacking of 3 planes to fly into 3 buildings when all they had to do was, as you say "demolish it quite successfully with explosives"
You say you are an engineer. Then I suggest you start doing your job and help construct buildings that can't collapse after an impact.
I watched the coverage. I never heard or saw any other explosion other than the initial hit.
I have been present at a few demolitions and I know where they would place the charge and what effect it would have.
This was completely different.
Can any one tell me a theory that doesnt originate from the US?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (385 days ago)

I am not an engineer nor an explosives expert, but I have seen the videos and its pretty clear that there are a lot of small explosions going on...and the speed at which the building fell was practically freefall. I dont think the media would cover that sort of stuff if they care for their lives.

And the previous poster is right, we may do better to have ed move this over to the Speakers Corner, weelee.

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by Pupalicious (385 days ago)

Maybe there were gas explotions. Everyone's worked in an office block that is a bit crappy and old. I don't know anything about buildings, I was on my way to the pub when the 9/11 thing happened so I didn't watch it, but maybe it was something natural in the building. Don't floresant lights explode in heat? Something like that, like I say, I don't know, but it's better to think it's something to do with the construction of the building than to do with the government. Are the yankies that bothered about oil? It polutes the atmosphere, wind power is the way forward!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Tidings 2 (385 days ago)

There were several restaurants in the building as well and a lot of gas is piped in for them.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by aussieinhk (385 days ago)

I was recently discussing this same topic with a mate, who is a structural engineer. He said that the reason that they collapsed, was that when designed, the Towers were actually designed to withstand the impact of an aircraft. However;

There seems to have been two specific issues:

1. Whilst having been designed to withstand such an impact, it was not envisaged that an aircraft would be almost full of fuel, which apparently they were.
2. The structural steel girders were manufactured to withstand heat generated by an impact and subsequent fire generated by aviation fuel with octane ratings current for the 1960’s. Modern aviation fuel is apparently a higher grade and burns at a higher temperature, which resulted in the girders melting and the subsequent collapse.

Another interesting point is that the insurance policy for the Towers, only ever took into consideration, one Tower collapsing. When both the Twins (and the several surrounding buildings) fell, the owners took a huge financial loss.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (385 days ago)

Thats just it though...the towers were insured a month or so before hand for a LOT of money...even with tower 1, 2 and 5 (or was it 7, that one no where near the other 2) collapsing, he walked away with something like 6billion dollars...trust me, he didnt lose money, he banked.

Also the temperature that jetfuel burns at and the temperature high grade steel melts at...are nowhere near each other. The fuel burns up pretty darn fast...the concrete on the building was practically dust, the steel busted all nice and neat chunks and shipped to china pronto...the list goes on...

Personally, I watched Chappelle's "Black Bush" sketch yesterday on YouTube...oh hell that guy hits the nail on the head! Lol!

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by Pumpkin (385 days ago)

I don't know about the towers, but don't get me started on the plane crashing into the Pentagon...there's a set up if ever there was one.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by flashback (385 days ago)

I went through all of the evidence some while back. It's very convincing. I did find a site where there was an interview disclosing that the WTC had been closed down for some time prior the previous weekend for 'maintenance', and that it was probably when the security team could have set the devices.

The problem is that no one will believe one, no matter how much evidence you can marshall, and there is considerable hard evidence. Why won't people believe it? It's because to do so is so totally challenging to a person's view of the world and creates a psychological split... truly does... to believe it would mean one would have to create another completely different view of the world.. and this is too horrendous for most people to do. Most are incapable of taking on the paradigm shift.

Our world is moving towards centralisation under the banner of globalisation for a number of economic and political reasons that make good sense to large corporations and their puppet governments. War and terrorism are strategies in that process. What can one do? It's a tough question because the process is already so far advanced as to be virtually, or probably, impossible to stop.

I too am very sorry for the many thousands of innocent lives lost in this terrible event. New York is a wonderful city and many Americans are trying their best to retain belief that the founding philosophies of that nation still have currency today. Unfortunately, even the second president of the USA, John Adams, warned that the biggest problem that would face the republic would be the wealth of corporations...

I truly hope I and the others are wrong... I'd like to see some believable evidence to the contrary that the government was innocent in all of this.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by DandyRandy (385 days ago)

Let's add this to all of the other "conspiracy theories"

The holocast during WW2 is just a myth and a pefect example how a saint like Hitler can get blamed for a BBQ gone awry.

The Cultural Revolution was really just poor decisions by managment to reorganize the work force. Mao really didn't mean to destroy the best and brightest minds in China.

Man didn't walk on the moon. It was all just a clever marketing ploy by NASA to sell Tang organge juice

The rape of Nanking? This is what happens when consensual adults participate in an orgy. He said, she said....

Lee Harvey Oswald did not work alone. The Russians and the Ethipiopians planted mind control chips in Harvey's brain to force Harvey to execute their plan to kill Kennedy.

Jesus really wasn't crucified. It was just a wood working accident that went horribly bad.

That being said....

I won't say it is impossible for some government to wreak havoc on their own citizens for some sinister and self serving purpose. God knows it has happened many times before all over the world. But it is impossible for me to believe that an act like 9-11 could be be a conspiracy for one simple reason. It would have taken way too many people to plan and execute such a dastardly deed. You don't think someone involved would not have talked by now? Maybe make a few million selling their story to the news organizations or Hollywood? But if it was a conspiracy, Bush did a masterful job of partnering with Bin Laden to corroborate the story. Who would have thought Bin Laden and Bush could work so well together? And they thought Bush was stupid !

While I obviously disagree with the 9-11 conspiracy theory, I will defend to my death your right to spout off whatever nonsense you want to believe in. Intelligent people can draw their own conclusions. And after reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm feeling pretty darn smart right now.

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by weelee (385 days ago)

Thanks guys, it's nice to know that the majority of you are thinking along the same lines as i. As flashback said, i hope that there is a good reason for what happened and that we all have got the wrong idea but until the government has more evidence about the penatgon "plane crash" or the reasons why all evidence for the WTC was shipped off instead of left untouched for investigation....when you look at all the evidence and all weird coincidences linked to the whole ordeal. It's very hard to believe it didn't happen without somebody in the govt knowing about it.

HkBlue, sorry to disappoint you, but I am not a civil engineer therefore it's not my specialty. Regarding your question: the building was designed to take multiple impacts of heavier planes. Also if you have witnessed controlled demolitions first hand surely you can see the similarity of how they collapsed into its footprint?

Thanks Dandy Randy for sharing your opinion, I believe the holocaust is real, lord forbid I am not one of those freaks that thinks it didnt happen nor one who thinks hitler was a saint. The holocaust was as real as 9/11 was. If you honestly think that its just someone making stuff up...have a look back at history and proven facts...do you know how the U.S got involved in the Vietnam War? What about Afghanistan? Or Iraq for that matter...Most people that stand there pointing a finger saying "Conspiracy wacko" are really not questioning the evidence enough. Oh and before anyone says anything, i am not a US hater or a political nut, I am just someone who is searching for real answers.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by flashback (385 days ago)

Yes... well... I fail to see Dandy Randy's logic... I would put Holocaust deniers, and Neo-Nazis who think Hitler was a nice bloke in with others whose cognitive dissonance indicates that they cannot deal with the plain facts. It is not good enough to say that on one hand there is this massive body of troubling evidence right down to the impossibility of mobile phone calls from the airplanes based on the known technology at that time, and on the other hand, the mere assertion of 'wouldn't someone squeal?'... which is not evidence at all, but a presumption...

As I said, I'd like to see some believable evidence to the contrary. Until then, I am prepared to keep an open mind, and not smugly label this 'conspiracy theory' or some other dismissive epithet.

I certainly wouldn't go around announcing my disquiet about these things publicly - too many naysayers ready with their formulated ostrich responses - but there are certainly enough oddities in the whole thing to legitimate some questioning.

The world is currently in the most absurd situation with this war in Iraq initiated on now dicredited 'intelligence' and prosecuted without any real sense of purpose... It's just crazy... makes no sense, unless viewed through perhaps the 'right' paradigm... and I don't think we have enough information to know exactly what that paradigm really is.

There is scope for more investigation, but I doubt if it will ever be forthcoming.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by DandyRandy (384 days ago)

I understand that there are many sources of information regarding 911. People can freely choose which sources they want to believe and which sources they don't want to believe.

Here is a link to Popular Mechanics. It is up to the individual to decide if they want to believe all of it, some of it, or none of it.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by Jan Lul (384 days ago)

On the topic of conspiracies: have you noticed that the proliferation of the internet, and people with lots of time on their hands, seems to go hand in hand with the proliferation of conspiracy theories ?

Spooky eh...

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by flashback (384 days ago)

The Internet has enabled an incredible amount of information and disinformation to come to the attention of computer literate people.

A critical literacy is indispensible for everyone in such an environment, as is the need to constantly monitor information from a wide range of sources.

I see my Internet use not as diversionary, but essential to understand the zeitgeist and the issues confronting people in our world today. We ought to encourage everyone to use this wonderful resource for true democratic expression in ethical ways, including posting comments that are designed to open or thoughtfully moderate debate, not silence it.

(I am based in Hong Kong)