child's custody and best interest.

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

I've been separated from my husband for more than three years. Uptil now we had a verbal and amicable understanding that my son spends week days with me and weekends with him.

Of late I have realised he is having a live in with his girlfriend. All her stuff is lying around in his house. He even exposed my son to her and I objected to it. But now he is exposed to her even though she is not around on weekends with his dad.

The point is : is it legal for my husband, without a legal divorce, to have a live in relationship?? I do not want my son to be affected in any way. I want to protect him and do not want any other woman to have anything to do with him.

But basically my husband disagrees and has created a lot of turmoil for me in the last few weeks.

Any advise is appreciated.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

And yes, last Tuesday I was very unwell and asked him to take care of our son as the maid was off too. Earlier it wasn't an issue but that day he blatantly refused! The reason -- his live-in gf!!

So basically his priority is his gf not son!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by evildeeds (430 days ago)

Of course it's legal and after 3 years it's actually none of your business what he does. You are not in control of your husband - it's his decision and his alone. Remember life goes on, you cannot expect your husband not to have other relationships. Try to be more understanding and let life take it's natural course.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

you don't get even a bit of what I have written!!

It is not about his moving on, it is about my son getting affected by his relationships! I want to protect my son. He is too young for this confusion.
My ex can go ahead and get married if he wants but let him give our son's custody to me!

evildeeds, this is a serious issue. I am not looking for people to attack me. Maybe you're him!!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

In anycase I am seeking legal help.
Posted here because sometimes people with similar issues can offer valuable insights gained through experience.

So, I request only people who have something constructive to offer need respond.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by evildeeds (430 days ago)

No I am not him, but I have been though exactly the same situation but on the other side of the fence. My ex wife tried to control me and what I did. So my response was based on a real life situation.

In the end my ex-wife was so incensed at me having another relationship a few years on she tried taking me to court to get full custody. As the judge said to her, she cannot control my life and there is nothing she can do except get on with her own life.

You response is emotional, but no different to many other cases. So I stand by what I said which WAS said with experience and valuable insight.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by evildeeds (430 days ago)

And one other thing that I would like to mention is that all the emotion and hassle that my ex-wife caused had a profound affect on my eldest son, leading him to panic attacks and a withdrawal into himself. Although my ex-wife used the pretense "to protect our children" she was actually mentally abusing them using me as a pretext, and my eldest son ended up in hospital. So be careful, don't let your emotions harm your own son.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

So you think it is okay that I let my son be exposed to this other woman in my ex husbands life? Even before he is officially divorced from me and has any meaningful r'ship with this woman?

I keep telling him to file for a divorce if he wants to move on with his life and he doesn't. Why? Were you the same?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Claire (430 days ago)

zonked>
Yes, your husband can have a live-in relationship with whomever he chooses. It is not illegal even though he is still married.

Do you have a formal separation agreement which lays down the terms of the separation, including child custody?

You should really think about seeking legal advice. You don't mention any steps you have taken towards a divorce. Are you contemplating this? If you have lived apart for more than two years you can file for divorce - your husband's consent is not required.

You don't say how old your child is, obviously more than two. An excellent book to help younger children to understand what is going on is "It's not your fault, Koko Bear" which you can read to him.

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (430 days ago)

one has to be careful that you don't use the child as a weapon against your ex.

Your ex, as with you, will have to go on in life. Yes, don't be surprised but you may find yourself with another partner in the future. What then you say about exposure to your son of your new partner?

When you say you don't want to confuse your son? What do you mean? Won't it be far more constructive to speak to your son, tell him that you both mum and dad are separated and despite that, the both of you still love him immensely?

Kids are very sensitive and need to be shown a whole lot of love. Sometimes kids feel as though they are the cause for the break up of their parents.

Try and be understanding with your ex. Communicate with him so that both of you do what is best for your son. This can mean a lot of things, but you will know once one puts their personal issues aside to focus on the needs of the little one.

Hope this makes some sense. It will be more difficult once your legal proceedings get fully underway as that will put even more pressure on you, however, try to remain focussed for your son and do your utmost best to keep him unaffected by these legal proceedings.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by evildeeds (430 days ago)

Yes I do think it's ok that he has contact with this other woman as it is part of his fathers life and he needs to understand. You can't wrap kids up in cotton wool forever no matter how much you want to.

I wasn't the same as your husband as I filed for divorce a few months after we separated. She kept that going for over 2 years as well! Why don't you file for divorce yourself? Is there something that is holding you back?

You know it seems harsh to you now but what has been said here is reality. The most important thing as you know is your son. But he cannot be used against something you personally disagree with. You may have that mixed in your mind with protecting your son but actually that is not the case.

My scenario now is that I am married again to a lovely woman and we will have a baby soon. If it was upto my ex-wife she would not want my kids to be part of my life with my wife and new baby, denying them access to their half sibling. Is that fair?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

And what good is it for your kids from ex wife to mingle with your new kid/life??

How is it more constructive than they living their life with mom, and moving on, just the way you have??

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

mind you, I am just asking these questions for the sake of argument; for the sake of gathering more info. It is not that I am against it, but I need to know how is it helpful.

Also, since my situation is a bit different. My ex is not even sure he wants to marry this woman!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Claire (430 days ago)

zonked> It's been three years, why have you chosen not to "legitimise" your separation? By that I mean separation agreement, separation order, judicial separation, or divorce?

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

good question...

did not feel the need.

did not want to fight.

thought both of us were dedicated to our son and that was the most important.

Didn't feel I needed to move on in life as in get married again so thought I do not need a legal thing...

thought my ex would do it if he needed to.

yes, maybe I delayed it. I should have done it earlier and gotten over with it.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (430 days ago)

it won't be a "fight" if you can agree to the issues. if not, agree to whatever issues, and if necessary, fight only the remaining issues. Keep in mind though, do try and compromise to keep the hostilities to a minimum.

The issue is for your son to be able to have contact with his dad - it's his right notwithstanding your feelings about the girlfriend.

Turn this argument the other way round, say that the father feels you are too prudish and backwards in your ways and that you'll raise his son to be a sissy and incompetent. So he wants to let you have less time with your son. How would you feel? See, I'm saying this cause you seem to appear to be over-protective over your son.

Your son will grow up and attend school, how will you cope when he is in a place subject to all kinds of peer pressure. Will you stop him from going to school so that he is not affected by bad influences?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by evildeeds (430 days ago)

Quote "And what good is it for your kids from ex wife to mingle with your new kid/life??"

Well ultimately I am the father of my kids, it's their right to be part of my life and my right to be part of theirs. I love my kids and they get on great with me. I don't hide my new life, I make them feel part of it so when they are with me they feel at home. Also I want them to know their half-sister when she is born and I also want her to know she has half-brothers who are part of the family.

One of the reasons my son was so badly affected by all this is that his mother wouldn't allow him to see me. You cannot expect kids "just to move on", it doesn't work like that and to be honest you do not have that right over your sons life. He will grow up and eventually resent you for what you have done.

Ultimately this is not about your son, it is about you and it's not unusual. I'll quote an example:

A married (and respectable) woman with 2 kids had an affair with a guy she met on the internet. Her husband found out and after a few months they split. She carried on with the affair, a divorce was started, both her and her husband sold the house and bought smaller houses. Kids stayed with her and then with him at weekends. After a while the guy she was having an affair with would come and stay often, they'd go on holiday, etc. Then after a year and a half her ex-husband started seeing someone. The woman went crazy, told him that his g/f couldn't stay at his when the kids were there, etc or he wouldn't see them. There was no reasoning with her. She thought she was right, despite what she had been doing!

So you see your situation is not unusual although it has bought out the selfish side of you. I don't mean that in a bad way, you just need time to be able to cope with the situation. Mind you after 6 years my ex-wife still can't!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

Well, evildeeds, what we are missing here is that I am not having double standards!

I am not staying with any guy and exposing my son to him. As a matter of fact, I have put my life literally on hold because of him and because I knew someday my ex will move on and if I do too, my son will basically not even have one dedicated parent!

Yes, I have dated men, but I have not had a relationship till date. My son being the reason. Otherwise, if I focussed on having one, I'd be married by now and probably had another kid too!

And yes, I've even been in love. But unfortunately that guy was not available to be with me. If he was, by now maybe we would also be living togehter, but then I would've handled things differently. I did first take a divorce and then start to live with this man. Which would've given a option to my ex to have his say.

Not like him to start a new life before properly ending an old one. He should have sat down with me, discussed his situation, and I am sure we would have reached an amicable solution. Since, I too want my son to have his dad. Otherwise I would have taken him back to our home country 4 years back when my ex cheated on me and cared little for his son!

I've done everything right and in the interest of my son. It feels terribly unfair that my ex is not willing to do the same, esp., when he was the one in the first place to destroy the family!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (430 days ago)

evil> I know exactly the type of person you've been dealing with. For me it's been just over 10 years now.

zonked> You're heading down the wrong alley it seems. You have a life too. I hate to say it, but it sounds like you're creating one of these dreaded emperor sons type of child. In what way do you mean "dedicated parent"? Are you doting on your child and putting him up on a pedastel?

Ok, so your ex did not separate on your terms, does it mean that you can't compromise and reach an amicable solution? Sounds like you're single-minded and not approachable to compromise.

You'll need to compromise and be flexible in these things, it's not an ideal world in which we live.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by KAT8 (430 days ago)

zonked, I know what you are going through. My ex is also living with his partner and we aren't officially divorced yet.

In the begining, I used to get hurt when the kids came and talked about his partner. I have gotten used to it, but it still hurts on bad days.

It is none of my business (took me a while to accept this) what my ex does in his personal life as long as it doesn't effect the kids negatively.

In the end since we have already separated, divorce (for me) is just a piece of paper. Yeah there is all the custody / legal regarding the kids etc, but emotionally we are divorced.

I agree with you that your husband shouldn't have put his girlfriend before his own son when you were not feeling well, but maybe he thought you were just "playing him" and that you wanted to ruin his day with his girlfriend. I am just making some assumptions here.

I know how all the negative emotions can come out when we are hurt, but you have to look after your self. If you really want to get divorced and he isn't doing anything about it, why don't you start the proceedings?

Hang in there and good luck.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Meiguoren (430 days ago)

Good Grief, I quit reading about 1/3 of the way through the self righteous replies. There is a name for it. It's called
A-D-U-L-T-E-R-Y. In my home jurisdiction, which is not Hong Kong, most courts don't look kindly on adultery. It can be a factor not only in custody and visitation issues, but also in issues related to maintenance and property division. Most courts don't like young children being exposed to lots of illicit relationships and confusion about what constitutes good morality or decent behavior. Courts in my jurisdiction will not deny visitation, but they will place reasonable limits on time, place, and manner of visitation as a way to protect children and to avoid confusing them about what is right and wrong. Zonked, look at it this way. At least he has the decency not to have her around when your children are there. Find an alternative child care arrangement for the days when you are sick or for when it's not convenient for the ex to kick his gf out of the house.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by KAT8 (430 days ago)

Meiquoren, for your information when my friend got divorced in HK, the judge didn't care that her husband committed adultery, did drugs, visited prostitutes. He still gave her husband joint custody.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

Unfortunately, adultery is not a crime! And it has become so common that courts do not even consider it a mistake any more. It is acceptable!! Even by the police. I say it with experience.

I know and he knows that we split because of his adultery but to him now that issue is way in the past and he needs to move on. I am fine with it too. What is pathetic and unfair is that he wants to have it all and I am the one to give up all!!

I take total responsibility of my son -- his needs, school work, other school requirements (which are way too many -- there're notices and emails everyday to take care of from school!!), enrolling him classes.... My ex just basically plays with him during the weekends!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (430 days ago)

I am even fine with joint custody... but I am not fine with my son being exposed to a woman with whom my ex husband has no legal relationship!

According to law, it is even ok for him to have a live-in without getting a divorce.... for me it is sort of weird and unfair.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (429 days ago)

Mei> Don't know what jurisdiction you come from, but as Kat mentions, adultery is a non-issue here in HK.

zonked> You're too obsesive with the fact that your ex has a gf and your son is exposed to her, and you try to rationalise it when you state they don't have a "legal" relationship (yet). Why does it matter?

If your ex wants to get on with his life, then let him be - it is his right. Your objection is that your son is exposed to this. Sorry, but what is so objectionable?

I really think there are so many more issues to worry over, but you seem to be dwelling on this one particular issue. Deep inside, can you tell me that you're not a woman scorned, hence your reaction to your ex and his gf?

You also say that you take full responsibility with your son. That is a good trait, but not unfamiliar with homemakers whether or not married. Your ex, I assume is a working person, so he won't have the time to run errands like you do. At least he spends time with his son, unlike many other deadbeat dads out there.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (429 days ago)

You are not fine with your son being exposed to this woman...what do you know about her?

The key to this is "I am not fine with" its not about your son is it? Its about you. You guys have been split up 3 years and you still cant seem to get over the fact that your lives are totally seperate now. Yes you are the mother of his child and he is the father of yours...like it or not, if you know whats right for your child, that is something you will have to endure the rest of your life. Your son's father is not with you anymore and you expect him to not have a gf, not have a live in partner, not fall in love and not share that with your son? If you are so adamant about that, why not go and file for divorce yourself.

Dont blame him, dont blame laziness, dont blame the "I didnt see the point in getting married again" excuse. People seperate, people get a divorce...they get divorced because they dont love each other and dont want to be married...NOT so they can be married again! People forget this stuff so easily. I think you two, like myself and ex, dont communicate too well...that is why you havent filed for a divorce, because you dont want to fight.

Guess what? This "getting along" is a facade, you two will fight like cats and dogs when the divorce time comes. Nothing will be good enough for you or for him and neither of you will compromise until you see it take a toll on your kid. Trust me, thats how it will go, but either way, divorce is where you guys are going.

Adultry? Rubbish. Not even the dumbest hack would think thats what he's doing if you two have been seperated 3 years. You wanted legal advice...and you got it from many others...the fact he has fallen in love, fact he is sharing his life with someone post you, the fact he has introduced your son to his love, is none of your business...and is perfectly within his rights. If you want it to be a legal thing "to protect your son" from this "woman" (who by the way could be someone your son totally loves one day, jealousy is not an option, its a natural feeling in these cases, but not an option) then go get your divorce and let your son enjoy hers and your husbands weekend company in peace, without heavy handed guilt cloaked in "I'm doing this to protect" stuff, its simply not the truth and you know it.

We all get hurt when someone we loved finds someone else to love. We feel like we had that right and no one else would know them like we did...but they will, they may even love them more or better than we did...and for that you should be happy for them, not jealous.

Your husband isnt the one creating turmoil, you are. Buddhist way teaches that you have to stop blaming others...just learn to live with what you are faced with and you will find, if you question yourself enough and if you are honest with yourself...you are making your life a lot harder than it is. You cant control who your husband sees...if you could you two wouldnt be getting divorced. That chapter has ended...its time you moved on. (besides didnt you say on another thread that you were over your exhusband and that you were now only pining for an ex lover? Isnt that double standards somewhere?) I know the truth is painful, but you have to view these message boards for what they are, a means to take a step back and have a good look at yourself from other peoples perspective.

We all think as a parent, as a co-parent, in a family apart that what we do has more worth than the other parent...things like school or lunchboxes or homework...but the truth of the matter is its not about us, its about our kids. Kids love mum and dad...not only one, so hard as it is to come to terms with, this isnt about you...dont claim its about your kid, coz he's perfectly happy to spend time with dad, even if he has to share it with the new love. You have to learn to be happy to share your sons affection too, he's a kid, trust me, there is more than enough to go around.

I was seperated for 6 years and only this year got to signing papers. My ex has a partner (live in) and I live with my partner. My son spends 3 days with me and 4 with my ex...do you think we are screwing him up? Do you think we are both commiting adultry? Should a court tell us whats best for our kid? Do you think I know best? Or my ex does? Should we have remained monklike for the past 6 years? Be realistic...let it go. You are just feeling down and a bit alone...it will pass, like I said before, dont make your ex's and your own life difficult...life is hard enough as it is.

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by dohmum (429 days ago)

zonked, if the "partner to your ex" issue is really annoying to you. The most sensible way is getting the divorce paper done first and ask for a formal custody order. Indeed, in legal sense, your ex and you are still husband and wife, if he chooses to live with his gf, he commits adultery. You can file the divorce paper on the ground of adulthery or 2 years separation with consent (as you two have been living separately for 3 years) Once the paper is filed, you can ask for certain orders regarding the children custody, either sole custody with you (with reasonable access to your partner) or joint custody (if you two can co-operate in certain extent). In determining the custody issue, the court will consider the gf issues (say, whether it is a stable relationship, will your ex form another family in the future, will the gf be suitable to be a proper guidiance to your son), all his gf issue will be mattered. The court order will be binding.

Of course, custody fighting is harsh on everybody, especially to kids as they are bound to love their mother and father. Try to talk to your ex and your son first.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (429 days ago)

Jalous Uranus -- you seem to be deriving pleasure in attacking me... so be it!

I'll read the other posts later but wanted to respond to yours immediately (yes, you're good at provoking me; and I get provoked easily). What makes you assume I am JUST a homemaker?? Yes, I am definitely proud of being one but how come you seem to think I do not have a career?????

My son is important to me and I'll never ignore any of his needs even if my own personal life takes a back seat. But well for most guys, like my husband, it is just important to work and play... they shrug off any domestic or parental responsibilities. Women can manage everything and that is why women are these days called "super-humans"!!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (429 days ago)

Dohmum -- thank you for your sound advice.

Personally, I do not think he committing adultery now (read this carefully, JC!! He committed adultery before we separated and that was the reason of our separation, JC -- hope you read this becoz you obviously missed this in my post in a hurry to write your looooong post).

Dohmum -- do you write with some experience or knowledge of law?? Because your post is very informative. Thanks.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (429 days ago)

J Uranus -- another thing -- why I consider exposure to that woman wrong is because my ex and she don't seem to be committed to eachother. Yes, I've met her! I do not want my son to be exposed to a new woman every month! That is obviously not healthy. If my ex gets married/engaged to this woman, I am ok for them (my son and her) to have some sort of relationship.

When he is not himself sure of his intentions for the woman how can he expose his son to her?? I've had men in my life but I did not make my son meet them because I knew they were just flings. My son did not need to know them. They had no lasting value in my life and hence my son is just too precious to be meeting them!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (429 days ago)

I have made a few assumptions based on what you have writtend and from reading between the lines.

From what you have written, it does appear that you're a full time mum. You're being awfully critical of your ex. Of course it is possible for you to ask him to share in some duties, whether or not he is willing or able, is another matter.

But what you are doing is saying that your ex doesn't deserve the fruits as he is not contributing to your son. In addition, you combine this with issue that your ex is seeing someone now and that relationship may or may not be stable and you don't want your son to be "exposed".

Look, just because your ex doesn't go running errands for the exclusive enjoyment of your son doesn't mean he's not providing good and healthy support. Spending quality time is better that quantity any day.

As for the gf, sorry but what moral highground do you stand on? What "exposure" are you worried about. It already seems your ex is showing restraint in having the gf around when your son is present. I'm sure if this relationship develops, your ex, his gf and your son will be hanging out.

Divorce is a 3 phase proceedings, the dissolution of marriage, financial settlement, and the custody.

For custody, the courts will have regards to paramount interests of a child. Many factors are taken into consideration. It will also depend what your ex wants - custody, joint-custody, or access. Depending on what your ex whats will determine the complexity of the case.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (429 days ago)

Well, you have assumed it wrong that I am a full time mum!

And, I haven't really been critical of my ex. Rather I've said I am even ok with joint custody and him remarrying!!

Are you a lawyer, J.Uranus?? With what authority do you state the stuff you've mentioned?

Last 3 years we've lived separately and amicably. Spent weekends together and even gone on holidays -- in best interest of my son.

I've met the woman and just think my son deserves a much better step mom if at all he has one!! Period.

Lastly, I'll ask for divorce and not wait for him to do so... I'll state my conditions and we'll see what happens.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by douglaskoh (429 days ago)

Is it legal for my husband, without a legal divorce, to have a live in relationship?

The answer is it is not a crime in Hong Kong. The only thing you can do ask for a divorce.

It is also not a crime for your husband to expose your son to his girlfriend. There is really nothing you can do.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by emk (429 days ago)

My parents divorced when I was 3 years old. Growing up, I always appreciated that my parents remained friendly with each. My dad cheated on my mom (totally wrong) but, he was still my dad and I loved him and needed him in my life just as much as I needed my mom.

I probably wouldn't be thrilled if my child being introduced to every "fling" your ex may be involved in, but if it's serious he should involve your child. As a child, the worst thing would be to be excluded from daddies new life. If she is living with your ex, she is an important part of his life.

I hope you can let some of your anger go for the benefit of your boy. It's not fair to him, if he feels caught between pleasing mom and having a relationship with his dad. Cutting dad out of his life will probably leave him with issues to work out later in life.

Please don't take this as an attack. I'm just trying to give the perspective of an adult kid of divorced parents.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by dohmum (428 days ago)

Zonked, I do work in legal field, but please dont assume I try to solicit client here. Just want to share what I know to others who need advice.

whenever there is kid involved, the interests of the kid is the most concern. His welfare is not us as a parent to decide but have to look at the full picture. Even the parents were divorced, we really want the kid is the one most "undisturbed". So maintaining an amciable relationship with your ex will help your son to go through this hardship as well. If you are worried your son is confused with the present situation, think seriously to get the divorce done. Of course, it is just the formalities now, however, sometimes we do feel released when we know everything is clear-cut.

Your life will still go on.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (428 days ago)

Well, lets hope that somewhere in all those responses is the answer you were looking for to find some peace and calm in your life. Hope it all works out for the best. Good luck, zonked.

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by Jalous Uranus (427 days ago)

Zonked, the last few posts really sum up everything in this thread in such a nice way. You have also heard from an adult kid of divorced parents.

There's nothing further to add. I do wish you good luck also.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by associates (427 days ago)

There is nothing preventing a “live in” relationship without a divorce. Unless the woman is particularly unsuitable (it must be something substantial and not simply because you don’t like/want her to be exposed to your son) or is a danger to the child, there is little you can do.

You may wish to have an initial consultation with us so that we may advise you further on your custody rights of your son as well as your own matrimonial rights. Our initial consultation fee is HK$2,500.

Please feel free to contact our Ms. C. Wong or 2526-1767 to make an appointment.


Weir & Associates
Solicitors & Notaries
2108 Gloucester Tower
The Landmark
15 Queens Road Central
Tel : 2526-1767
Fax : 2868-3568
email : weirlaw@hongkonglaw.com
www.HongKongLaw.com/weirlaw

(I am based in Hong Kong)